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'The Objective of Education Is Learning, Not Teaching'

Published: August 20, 2008 in Knowledge@Wharton
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In their book, Turning Learning Right Side Up: Putting Education Back on Track, authors Russell L. Ackoff and Daniel Greenberg point out that today's education system is seriously flawed -- it focuses on teaching rather than learning. "Why should children -- or adults -- be asked to do something computers and related equipment can do much better than they can?" the authors ask in the following excerpt from the book. "Why doesn't education focus on what humans can do better than the machines and instruments they create?"

"Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth learning can be taught."
   -- Oscar Wilde

Traditional education focuses on teaching, not learning. It incorrectly assumes that for every ounce of teaching there is an ounce of learning by those who are taught. However, most of what we learn before, during, and after attending schools is learned without its being taught to us. A child learns such fundamental things as how to walk, talk, eat, dress, and so on without being taught these things. Adults learn most of what they use at work or at leisure while at work or leisure. Most of what is taught in classroom settings is forgotten, and much or what is remembered is irrelevant.

In most schools, memorization is mistaken for learning. Most of what is remembered is remembered only for a short time, but then is quickly forgotten. (How many remember how to take a square root or ever have a need to?) Furthermore, even young children are aware of the fact that most of what is expected of them in school can better be done by computers, recording machines, cameras, and so on. They are treated as poor surrogates for such machines and instruments. Why should children -- or adults, for that matter -- be asked to do something computers and related equipment can do much better than they can? Why doesn't education focus on what humans can do better than the machines and instruments they create?

When those who have taught others are asked who in the classes learned most, virtually all of them say, "The teacher." It is apparent to those who have taught that teaching is a better way to learn than being taught. Teaching enables the teacher to discover what one thinks about the subject being taught. Schools are upside down: Students should be teaching and faculty learning.

After lecturing to undergraduates at a major university, I was accosted by a student who had attended the lecture. After some complimentary remarks, he asked, "How long ago did you teach your first class?"

I responded, "In September of 1941."

"Wow!" The student said. "You mean to say you have been teaching for more than 60 years?"

"Yes."

"When did you last teach a course in a subject that existed when you were a student?"

This difficult question required some thought. After a pause, I said, "September of 1951."

"Wow! You mean to say that everything you have taught in more than 50 years was not taught to you; you had to learn on your own?"

"Right."

"You must be a pretty good learner."

I modestly agreed.

The student then said, "What a shame you're not that good a teacher."

The student had it right; what most faculty members are good at, if anything, is learning rather than teaching. Recall that in the one-room schoolhouse, students taught students. The teacher served as a guide and a resource but not as one who force-fed content into students' minds.

Ways of Learning

There are many different ways of learning; teaching is only one of them. We learn a great deal on our own, in independent study or play. We learn a great deal interacting with others informally -- sharing what we are learning with others and vice versa. We learn a great deal by doing, through trial and error. Long before there were schools as we know them, there was apprenticeship -- learning how to do something by trying it under the guidance of one who knows how. For example, one can learn more architecture by having to design and build one's own house than by taking any number of courses on the subject. When physicians are asked whether they leaned more in classes or during their internship, without exception they answer, "Internship."

In the educational process, students should be offered a wide variety of ways to learn, among which they could choose or with which they could experiment. They do not have to learn different things the same way. They should learn at a very early stage of "schooling" that learning how to learn is largely their responsibility -- with the help they seek but that is not imposed on them.

The objective of education is learning, not teaching.

There are two ways that teaching is a powerful tool of learning. Let's abandon for the moment the loaded word teaching, which is unfortunately all too closely linked to the notion of "talking at" or "lecturing," and use instead the rather awkward phrase explaining something to someone else who wants to find out about it. One aspect of explaining something is getting yourself up to snuff on whatever it is that you are trying to explain. I can't very well explain to you how Newton accounted for planetary motion if I haven't boned up on my Newtonian mechanics first. This is a problem we all face all the time, when we are expected to explain something. (Wife asks, "How do we get to Valley Forge from home?" And husband, who does not want to admit he has no idea at all, excuses himself to go to the bathroom; he quickly Googles Mapquest to find out.) This is one sense in which the one who explains learns the most, because the person to whom the explanation is made can afford to forget the explanation promptly in most cases; but the explainers will find it sticking in their minds a lot longer, because they struggled to gain an understanding in the first place in a form clear enough to explain.

The second aspect of explaining something that leaves the explainer more enriched, and with a much deeper understanding of the subject, is this: To satisfy the person being addressed, to the point where that person can nod his head and say, "Ah, yes, now I understand!" explainers must not only get the matter to fit comfortably into their own worldview, into their own personal frame of reference for understanding the world around them, they also have to figure out how to link their frame of reference to the worldview of the person receiving the explanation, so that the explanation can make sense to that person, too. This involves an intense effort on the part of the explainer to get into the other person's mind, so to speak, and that exercise is at the heart of learning in general. For, by practicing repeatedly how to create links between my mind and another's, I am reaching the very core of the art of learning from the ambient culture. Without that skill, I can only learn from direct experience; with that skill, I can learn from the experience of the whole world. Thus, whenever I struggle to explain something to someone else, and succeed in doing so, I am advancing my ability to learn from others, too.

Learning through Explanation

This aspect of learning through explanation has been overlooked by most commentators. And that is a shame, because both aspects of learning are what makes the age mixing that takes place in the world at large such a valuable educational tool. Younger kids are always seeking answers from older kids -- sometimes just slightly older kids (the seven-year old tapping the presumed life wisdom of the so-much-more-experienced nine year old), often much older kids. The older kids love it, and their abilities are exercised mightily in these interactions. They have to figure out what it is that they understand about the question being raised, and they have to figure out how to make their understanding comprehensible to the younger kids. The same process occurs over and over again in the world at large; this is why it is so important to keep communities multi-aged, and why it is so destructive to learning, and to the development of culture in general, to segregate certain ages (children, old people) from others.

What went on in the one-room schoolhouse is much like what I have been talking about. In fact, I am not sure that the adult teacher in the one-room schoolhouse was always viewed as the best authority on any given subject! Long ago, I had an experience that illustrates that point perfectly. When our oldest son was eight years old, he hung around (and virtually worshiped) a very brilliant 13-year-old named Ernie, who loved science. Our son was curious about everything in the world. One day he asked me to explain some physical phenomenon that lay within the realm of what we have come to call "physics"; being a former professor of physics, I was considered a reasonable person to ask. So, I gave him an answer -- the "right" answer, the one he would have found in books. He was greatly annoyed. "That's not right!" he shouted, and when I expressed surprise at his response, and asked him why he would say so, his answer was immediate: "Ernie said so and so, which is totally different, and Ernie knows." It was an enlightening and delightful experience for me. It was clear that his faith in Ernie had been developed over a long time, from long experience with Ernie's unfailing ability to build a bridge between their minds -- perhaps more successfully, at least in certain areas, than I had been.

One might wonder how on earth learning came to be seen primarily a result of teaching. Until quite recently, the world's great teachers were understood to be people who had something fresh to say about something to people who were interested in hearing their message. Moses, Socrates, Aristotle, Jesus -- these were people who had original insights, and people came from far and wide to find out what those insights were. One can see most clearly in Plato's dialogues that people did not come to Socrates to "learn philosophy," but rather to hear Socrates' version of philosophy (and his wicked and witty attacks on other people's versions), just as they went to other philosophers to hear (and learn) their versions. In other words, teaching was understood as public exposure of an individual's perspective, which anyone could take or leave, depending on whether they cared about it.

No one in his right mind thought that the only way you could become a philosopher was by taking a course from one of those guys. On the contrary, you were expected to come up with your own original worldview if you aspired to the title of philosopher. This was true of any and every aspect of knowledge; you figured out how to learn it, and you exposed yourself to people who were willing to make their understanding public if you thought it could be a worthwhile part of your endeavor. That is the basis for the formation of universities in the Middle Ages -- places where thinkers were willing to spend their time making their thoughts public. The only ones who got to stay were the ones whom other people ("students") found relevant enough to their own personal quests to make listening to them worthwhile.

By the way, this attitude toward teaching has not disappeared. When quantum theory was being developed in the second quarter of the twentieth century, aspiring atomic physicists traveled to the various places where different theorists were developing their thoughts, often in radically different directions. Students traveled to Bohr's institute to find out how he viewed quantum theory, then to Heisenberg, to Einstein, to Schrodinger, to Dirac, and so on. What was true of physics was equally true of art, architecture...you name it. It is still true today. One does not go to Pei to learn "architecture"; one goes to learn how he does it -- that is, to see him "teach" by telling and showing you his approach. Schools should enable people to go where they want to go, not where others want them to.

Malaise of Mass Education

The trouble began when mass education was introduced. It was necessary

  • To decide what skills and knowledge everyone has to have to be a productive citizen of a developed country in the industrial age
  • To make sure the way this information is defined and standardized, to fit into the standardization required by the industrial culture
  • To develop the means of describing and communicating the standardized information (textbooks, curricula)
  • To train people to comprehend the standardized material and master the means of transmitting it (teacher training, pedagogy)
  • To create places where the trainees (children) and the trainers (unfortunately called teachers, which gives them a status they do not deserve) can meet -- so-called schools (again a term stolen from a much different milieu, endowing these new institutions with a dignity they also do not deserve)
  • And, to provide the coercive backing necessary to carry out this major cultural and social upheaval

In keeping with all historic attempts to revolutionize the social order, the elite leaders who formulated the strategy, and those who implemented it, perverted the language, using terms that had attracted a great deal of respect in new ways that turned their meanings upside down, but helped make the new order palatable to a public that didn't quite catch on. Every word -- teacher, student, school, discipline, and so on -- took on meanings diametrically opposed to what they had originally meant.

Consider this one example from my recent experience. I attended a conference of school counselors, where the latest ideas in the realm of student counseling were being presented. I went to a session on the development of self-discipline and responsibility, wondering what these concepts mean to people embedded in traditional schooling. To me, self-discipline means the ability to pursue one's goals without outside coercion; responsibility means taking appropriate action on one's own initiative, without being goaded by others. To the people presenting the session, both concepts had to do solely with the child's ability to do his or her assigned class work. They explained that a guidance counselor's proper function was to get students to understand that responsible behavior meant doing their homework in a timely and effective manner, as prescribed, and self-discipline meant the determination to get that homework done. George Orwell was winking in the back of the room.

Today, there are two worlds that use the word education with opposite meanings: one world consists of the schools and colleges (and even graduate schools) of our education complex, in which standardization prevails. In that world, an industrial training mega-structure strives to turn out identical replicas of a product called "people educated for the twenty-first century"; the second is the world of information, knowledge, and wisdom, in which the realpopulation of the world resides when not incarcerated in schools. In that world, learning takes place like it always did, and teaching consists of imparting one's wisdom, among other things, to voluntary listeners.

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Here's what you think...

Total Comments: 19

#1    Education

Excellent! What is the job of education? Learning, of course. Imagine what would happen in a school where the faculty and administration considered their job to be empowering students to learn (not teaching). (Someone once said that "no one wants to be sold; they want to be empowered to buy.") Empowering students to learn would put the responsibility for learning back where it always should have been - on the student. And it would require that the subject matter actually be relevant to each student rather than be forced upon him/her. Perhaps it would turn around the horrendous dropout rate because now kids would be energized to achieve something they want to pursue rather than walk through the day (years) doing what someone has told them to do.
By: Urquhart Wood, StrategyLab, Inc.
Sent: 11:20 PM Wed Aug.20.2008 - US

#2    Education

One of the greatest merits for a European education is its insistence on reading and decision making. Unfortunately the managerial, mass education that is gaining dominance now loses that notion of 'reading' for a degree, class debate and argument development.
By: Kerry , University of the Witwatersrand
Sent: 03:08 AM Thu Aug.21.2008 - -

#3    The Mission of Teaching

Thank you for an insightful article. Some of us have, from time to time, stumbled upon insights similar to yours in the classroom.

During my teaching career, I viewed myself as "managing" a classroom of students. Our goal was to produce successful work together. Naturally, those with stronger skills were asked to help those with weaker skills. We succeeded as a group or "department."

This approach also tended to moderate the generation gap and engender a "we're all in this together" attitude.
By: Stephen Jay, SJK Communications Inc. / Senior Consultant
Sent: 07:00 AM Thu Aug.21.2008 - US

#4    The Practioner Versus the Academic

As a professor teaching post graduate courses in school business administration, I really appreciate this article. As a former practioner in my field, I notice that my courses are fully subscribed by students who want to know how it really works rather than how other professors think it works.

I selected the Wharton School for my undergraduate education not just for its reputation, but because so many of its professors at that time (early '80s) were very successful practioners in the field in which they "taught", rather than traditional academics who had never built or run anything.

I still remember my first day of class in corporate finance, when my professor asked the class what the value of a share of stock was. I became frustrated after my classmates rattled off the normal drivel related to price to earnings ratios, book value, etc. I responded that these things were all very nice, but that a share of stock was worth exactly and only what someone else was willing to pay for it. My attempt to bring the concept of the marketplace into the discussion was ignored as it did not fit into the professor's paradigm - he was an academic. I quickly learned that this professor had very little to offer me in the way of real world knowledge and sought to learn this important content from others.
By: Shane Higuera, SBA Solutions, Inc. / President
Sent: 10:06 AM Thu Aug.21.2008 - US

#5    Turning learning right side up

Hooray for Dr Ackoff! I had the great pleasure of being introduced in the 50's when I was a graduate student, and have come to learn exactly what he is saying in this article/book, when I became a professor teaching MBA's. I refuse to lecture, refuse to use a stanard textbook, try to use case studies that are germane to the particular students in my classes. I get 90 nationalities in the roughly 150 students I teach in several sections, and boy, do I learn ! One student told me that in Russia strategic planning has to be mathematically precise; An East German student told me that she was not going to take my course because she hated English; a Chinese student wanted to write a thesis on whether traditional business paradigms could survive globalization. Now I have a female Icelandic student asking why Victoria's Secret that has been a huge success in the U.S. doesn't even try to sell the brand overseas. My French students insist on asking "what is your methodology?" and my reply is that were there such a thing, the Japanese would have invented a gadget to produce the right answers, and no French graduate would have a job! I break my classes up into small groups, make them struggle to find the right questions, and the answers; yes, I do slip them some suggestions on techniques, but only after they realize they need something they don't have; I make them do presentations and critique each other's. And do I learn stuff in the process!

Walter Blass
Visiting Professor of Management, Grenoble Graduate School of Business, Grenoble, France
By: walter blass, Stategic Planning UnLtd
Sent: 02:05 PM Thu Aug.21.2008 - US

#6    Learning vs Teaching

While I agree with the authors in the main, I have a few nitpicks about their history.
First, they say that “What went on in the one-room schoolhouse is much like what I have been talking about.” I beg to disagree! What went on in the one-room schoolhouse of the 19th century was rote memorization whenever possible. Of course some skills were taught but it was called the “blab school” because the students were constantly reciting the lessons that they had memorized.
Second, they say that the universities of the middle ages were places where “thinkers were willing to spend their time making their thoughts public” and that teachers survived only so long as students found them relevant to their own personal quests. Again my understanding of medieval universities is that they spent huge amounts of time emphasizing rote memorization. The “Educated Man” was one who could recite large sections of literature from memory.
Again, I agree wholeheartedly with the opinions stated here but I think that the two points (above) are examples of author’s wishful thinking about “the way things ought to be”. It certainly is true that “education is not the filling of a bucket but of lighting a fire” and “the most important things can never be taught”. Learning is an activity, not a (supine) position.

My opinions are mine alone and do not reflect for good or ill on my institution(s).
By: jim scandale, Medaille College
Sent: 02:48 PM Thu Aug.21.2008 - US

#7    Positive attitude to learning

Excellent! This truly matches the ideal of the International Baccalaureate Programmes which encourage a positive attitude to learning by encouraging students to ask challenging questions, to critically reflect, to develop research skills, and to learn how to learn. It also encourages community service because it believes that there is more to learning than academic studies alone.
By: Filipa Canelas, St.Dominics International School PTA
Sent: 03:39 PM Thu Aug.21.2008 - PT

#8    A supporting thought

"You cannot teach a man anything. You can only help him discover it within himself."

Galileo Galilei
By: Dan Curran, Dir.
Sent: 05:28 PM Thu Aug.21.2008 - US

#9    Everybody knows it but who cares

I always wonder how many people repackage old wine in new bottles. The most important thing is that neither the student nor the teacher (except a few) are interested in learning or teaching. Students want good grades, teachers want good evaluations. The fact is neither really means much or matters much because that is what the system demands. Incentives for both the teacher and student are completely out of sync. When I redesigned a class to make it more real-world like, it required unstructured decision making, research thinking and analysis for the student and not some bone headed opinion, the people who were most unhappy were the students. I took away their comfort zone of plugging and chugging to get a unique answer by using known formulas and they were at a complete loss. No wonder my evaluation tanked. So unless there is commitment by the system, nothing will change mostly as people will simply respond to their perceived incentive.
By: barry Mishra, UT Dallas
Sent: 11:46 PM Thu Aug.21.2008 - US

#10    Teachers' belief: The Objective of Education Is Learning only

This statement may need reiteration at times as appropriate. But it is not a new statement. Wharton is not set up to provide employment to some teachers and associated employees. People are not sending their children to schools and colleges for giving salaries to teachers. Neither teachers nor administrators believe that education exists for teaching.

The purpose and objective of education is learning by the student or learner. How should a society organize its learning process? Should it be mass education? Or should it be home based customized one to one education? We made certain decisions in this regard so far based on our cumulative experience of thousands of years and if our researchers come out with new insights, we as a community that believes in science and progress of science stand ready to modify our systems. But the general presumption that teachers believe that objective of education is teaching is totally a false assumption or postulate to begin with.

The current education system did deliver results to a large extent. It is an effective system. Is it an efficient system? Can its efficiency be improved? Even effectiveness of systems can be improved when the objective is a broad one like learning of children. The researchers have to identify gaps in the current systems or knowledge base and then come theoretical conjectures that solve the identified problem of lack of theory. The theoretical conjecture is to be tested empirically for propagating it as a scientific theory. Persons who are not researchers but want to propose policy prescriptions have to go through the relevant research findings and use them to develop their policy prescription.

Dubbing everything existing as an ineffective and inefficient is to insult all those Wiseman on whose shoulders Newton said he had stood and observed things to get a much better picture.

We believe in improvement and continuous improvement and we want ideas on how to improve education at every level. But this article does not provide balanced view and does not identify the facts related to the strengths and weaknesses of the current education system at various levels like beliefs, attitudes, behavior and systems (of parents, children, educators and administrators) and come out with appropriate suggestions based on the facts and related explanations.
By: K V S S Narayana Rao, Professor, NITIE, Mumbai
Sent: 02:52 AM Fri Aug.22.2008 - IN

#11    Practitioner-led Knowledge Learning

This article resonates loudly with me as a graduate faculty member who is also a practioner. Twice as a graduate student I learned from those who practiced their trade all the while teaching us who were eager to learn the practical and real methods to succeed.

I ended a course last night with a send off that reminded the students the skills and knowledge learned here are worthless if they are confined to a piece of parchment hanging on your "I love me" wall. "It's the Tools, not the Schools" that make you a success.

Thank you to the authors for reinforcing that point.
By: Rick Lochner, RPC Leadership Associates, Inc.
Sent: 10:18 AM Fri Aug.22.2008 - US

#12    Excellent article

I really appreciated this article. We need to continue this type of dialogue around education.
By: Sarah Galimore,
Sent: 11:20 AM Fri Aug.22.2008 - US

#13    The objective of education

Education has been commoditised via the concept of teaching which seeks to force the acquisition of certain knowledge on students. The aim of teaching as we are often told is to prepare us to work in particular sectors of the economy. We dont have to like what we are taught as the ultimate goal is economic, i.e. to earn a living. Contrast this with real learning, which comes from within and is driven by a desire to create a perspective out of our world view.
By: Steve Onyendinazu, Bank PHB/Relationship Manager
Sent: 01:55 PM Fri Aug.22.2008 - -

#14    Where to begin the change?

The most powerful thought of this article was "Schools should enable people to go where they want to go, not where others want them to." If we know that education system/society is driving people to a particular direction, how can we empower individuals to choose their own directions? How to break the credential inflation? If learning is experiential and practical, what benchmarks/measures can we create of excellence? While I agree that our education system attempts to equate teaching or memorizing with learning, however, I would welcome thoughts on how to break the mold. If today, someone says that he or she has all the requisite learning (practical experience or skills) to fulfill a job but no college degree, would you be ready to hire him or her?
By: Rahul Choudaha,
Sent: 09:50 PM Fri Aug.22.2008 - -

#15    The Objective of Education

Very seldom have I read a more elaborate beating of a dead horse. This essay begins as an empirically undocumented rant, and goes agonizingly nowhere.
By: Patrick Groff, Professor of Education Emeritus
Sent: 02:36 AM Sat Aug.23.2008 - US

#16    Education is

Prof Ackoff's perpective is insightful. We do not, however, have to make it binary; like, it is the teacher who really learns and it is the pupil who teaches. Both become part of an ambience conducive to generative learning, where learning and teaching become two sides of the same coin. The Sanskrit prayer recited jointly by the teacher and student before learning the 'upanishad' -- an acient Indian treatise of spiritual knowldge -- translates as "let us 'experience' the truth together." Also, ancient Indian tradition encourages the student to ask "why?" even if the teacher does not have the answer. Many great discoveries have occurred in all fields only when someone asks questions for which answers are yet to emerge.
By: Manjakkudi Jayaraman, Lumino Strategies
Sent: 10:49 AM Sat Aug.23.2008 - IN

#17    universe is the university

This universe is the university and every creation is an open book to read. To my mind a child starts learning from the mother's womb. The mother's wisdom is not inherited but is learned bY the child in the company of the mother.

Education is to draw out from within. This means a human being is full of information, knowledge etc from beginning. No new knowledge is thrown from outside by different teaching methods.

Teachers are those who can invoke the inner spirit and open the hidden files from the subconscious of the student's mind.
Even nature is a teacher. There are many teachers in the universe if we bridge the mind with nature, higher self and God...they all can be our teahcers,who in real terms draw out from within the hidden knowledge from us.
Teachers are not necessarily 'personal' they could be ''impersonal'' too.
There are mythological examples in Indian culture where Ekalavya, a diligent student, had just kept the photo of the teacher and had aquired his teacher's knowledge through inspiration.
By: essay contest,
Sent: 01:09 PM Sat Aug.23.2008 - -

#18    Teaching, not learning?

I read it all and was not going to comment until I read Prof Groff and then my friend, the Indian from Lumina Industries, from the other side of the planet.
First, my Indian colleage has had the same experiences that I have in Yuma, Arizona schools with the other "Indians." I teach mostly southwestern Mexican and Native American children here and the experience for me has been anything but downward as the authors have suggested. Computers are supplemental to all of us in the classroom, and it a free-flowing mix of thought and creativity most of the time. We often wander off curriculum and Google up images of whatever interests them, write stories and plays, calculate sizes of pyramids or Liberty Bells, and so on.
I marvel at the top-of-the-tower recollections of Wharton from visiting profs. My only recollections were of graduation day and Bill Paley wishing us all good luck in 1968, occasional lectures and a wrestling match now and then with a gunman near the drugstore on 36th Street who wanted my wallet. He lost, and I still have the gun. But then again, I guess we all came from different neighborhoods, didn't we.
I did not appreciate the front end of the article which appeared to me to trash school teachers, who, with me, fight principals, administrators, elected school board members who, at times, are clueless, and some parents who stalk some schools itching to intimidate teachers.
They are told what to teach, how to teach it, measured how high, and what color. And you criticize them - all for $26,000 a year to start.
This is my fourth career..or is it fifth. I do it not for the money, no one in school does, we do it for the love of the kids.
Long article, the theories sound great, though.
By: Charles Roger Fulton, School Teacher
Sent: 02:18 PM Sat Aug.23.2008 - US

#19    The task of the teacher ...

My love of teaching and learning goes back to the 1940's and The ETTA Diploma in Christian Education of Children at Moody Bible Insititute, Chicago 1959-1962.
With my new Masters in Public Health in 1979 my students were occupational health nurses. I told them that all their accumulated knowledge of the field must be greater than mine, but that I had a role to help them put that knowledge together, and improve their understanding. Unable to write a coherent essay at the beginning, within six months of their day release course they were writing publishable material. They produced algorithms to aid their practice in their unique work situations.
The rate of new knowledge becoming available was a constant challenge to teachers then, it must be worse now. How do you digest it and validate it for your teaching. I tried, but most seemed to regurgitate the same each year. When they made me redundant the person who was to run my courses in future said that she would teach what she had learned on her course. It seemed to me that she had not understood even that particularly well.
My teaching related qualifications include BS MPH PhD ETTA Dip DTCDHE.
By: Genevieve Hibbs, Lifelong Learner ...
Sent: 03:42 PM Sun Aug.24.2008 - -
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